[00:00:03] Patrick: I wasn’t selected because I was smart; I was selected because I was the person who could fit and do the work. At the age of 21, you become the IT director there only because you’re the only one who knows how everything operates, pulling and installing all the cables. I was the only one who knew how to fix anything on the go.
[00:00:26] Intro: Welcome to Experience Matters by Hiver, a podcast where we keep it real about customer service. Every episode features industry experts who share what really goes into creating unforgettable customer moments. No boring stuff. No fluff. Just honest conversations. Stay tuned, and we promise you’ll walk away with insights you can actually use.
[00:00:52] Niraj: Welcome, Patrick, to the Experience Matters podcast.
[00:00:55] Patrick: Thank you for having me.
[00:00:57] Niraj: Great to have you, Patrick, with us. Let’s get started from the start. One thing I found extremely interesting is that you started your career in the military, working on IT systems onboard the USS Johannesburg. Would love to know more about that. How did you get started with that? How did your early experiences ultimately end up affecting, and impacting your perspective on leadership and building a business?
[00:01:20] Patrick: Great question, and happy to start off that way. It’s just the first time that I was actually selected for a certain job because of my size. At that time in the Navy, they were transitioning from a legacy copper-based system to a more IT digital system for their communications. And they didn’t require somebody with technical knowledge. They required someone small and tiny, and that could fit because I was gonna pull a lot of cable, and I was gonna have to put in fiber. So I wasn’t selected because I was smart; I was selected because I was a person who could fit and do the work. And, imagine you’re 21 years old, you’re in the belly of a United States warship, and at the age of 21, you become the IT director there, only because it’s not that you’re smarter than anybody, it’s because you’re the only one who knows how everything operates, pulling and installing all the cables. I was the only one who knew how to fix anything when it broke. So I would happen to be at the right place at the right time. And in the middle of all of that integration, I had to learn and work and deal with people that I had nothing in common with. When you grow up in one part of the United States, the other parts of the U.S is; they act differently, everybody’s from a different socio-economic background, race, religion, you name it, but I have to install cable in all their spaces and places, and it was through experience, through actually doing the work, that I learned to do it. And there was a lot of stress involved, like any startup, that at the end of the day, if I didn’t get the work done, other people were affected. And in a Navy military environment, if you didn’t complete your work and it inconvenienced them, there was hell to pay; you would not be able to go to sleep, you would not eat. Everybody depends on each other. So it was through that seasoning and hardening, those first two years in Japan, that you were forced to pivot and learn not to, unlike a startup, because you eventually want to increase the quality of your life and get it done. I really hated that job when I first started, but if I didn’t have that experience, I wouldn’t be where I am today. So thank you for asking.
[00:03:42] Niraj: Excellent. Good to know that. I’m sure it’s ultimately rewarding. But just from a difficult experience, to starting Unity Communications, like, how did that happen? And what inspired you to become an entrepreneur and get into the BPO/Customer Service space?
[00:03:58] Patrick: So you go through the journey of the military, then you go into corporate America. And in the corporate world, I found it very easy to succeed because I had discipline. I woke up every morning, I took care of my body, I was an avid runner, I ate healthy, so for me, having discipline to make the calls, to have the meetings, to do all the things necessary to do, it was pretty easy. I just had to work 9-5, do my job, and at the end of the day, it was discipline that set me apart from other people. But when you have children, and you’re gone 12 to 14 hours a day, especially at that point when I was a single father, it doesn’t work. Because you come home and you really realize that you missed the best part of your life. You can make money, you can accomplish these things, you can sell deals, but it’s nothing compared to being there for your kids on their first steps and this and that. So I decided to trade my very secure, very well-paying corporate job for time, where as an independent salesperson, I can work when I want, how I want, but the risk was that I would only be able to earn what I kill. So basically, by trading control of my time, I gave up control of my salary. So it was really hard my first year. My first year, I made $40,000, almost all of it the last year, but I was there for every single moment for my kids. And the schedule was I wake up at 4 in the morning, work until 8, do my morning routine with my kids until lunch. Lunch, they would relax or watch TV. I would work, and I figured out a way to squeeze in 10 hours of work while raising my kids, but I gave up social activities, I gave up friends, I gave up so much, but that’s what you have to do.
[00:06:01] Niraj: Excellent. I’m sure interesting trade-off, but looking back, I’m sure you’re proud of it, and you would have enjoyed it.
[00:06:09] Patrick: Everyone thought I was crazy. Everyone thought I was ridiculous in that because that’s what they tell a lot of startups with people running businesses; this is like, you know what the odds are? I’m willing to risk it because those moments with my children are worth more than me relaxing by the beach.
[00:06:27] Niraj: I think having so much clarity about exactly what you want and why you want it, right, probably is what carries you forward. So great to hear that.
[00:06:35] Patrick: Yes.
[00:06:36] Niraj: And then when you started, right, I mean, why this business and not something else? I mean, you could have gone into so many different things. Why Unity Communications? Why the customer service space? So why did you get into this, as against anything else that you could have done?
[00:06:48] Patrick: So you lead with your strengths. I was selling telecommunications and phone systems to business customers, and I had, before any person leaves corporate America, they will reach out to their main customers, and they will ask them the question, “I’m thinking about going on my own. If I were to go on my own, would you hire me?” And many of them said, “Yes.” Then only a small percentage of those carry through. You know, I like to give this script to other people because it is exactly what I told people, “I’m going on my own, and you have the opportunity to be my first customer. And if you’re my first customer, I would do absolutely anything to earn and keep your business at a much higher level than I’m doing now. And you will never ever get that out of an account rep for other telecoms. You will have somebody pretty much throwing themselves to ensure that you’re happy because that first customer is so special.” It’s your first billing, and the other person on the other side, who was an entrepreneur at one moment in time, they know what that’s like, so if you say, “hey, I’m going on my own because I think I can do this better. Would you support me?” The person who is an entrepreneur on the other side that you’re talking to remembers what that feels like. So, people don’t buy mostly on spreadsheets and the bottom line, people really buy based on how you make them feel, and then, does it make sense for the business? That business didn’t have anything to lose; they were working with me before. So in corporate America, where most entrepreneurs cut their teeth, they have contacts. You have to use those contacts, ’cause if you don’t bridge them over to your entrepreneur side, you’re just not gonna make it.
[00:08:43] Niraj: Great. So that’s a great learning there, which I would want to come back to later. But, yeah, I think what you mentioned there was that being able to leverage the contacts that you might have made while you are working in the best possible manner to kind of bootstrap and find a launchpad is extremely critical.
[00:09:00] Patrick: Yes. And you don’t need to be competitors with those you’re leaving, you can just tell them I am leaving, and I’d like to represent you as an independent contractor in direct sales. And a lot of them are open to it because they don’t have anything to lose, and they don’t want to pay your payroll anyway, so why not?
[00:09:21] Niraj: Absolutely. Would love to also talk about how important customer service is; I’m sure it’s not a call center for you; that’s not how you look at it. But how important is it to your growth strategy? How has that evolved, right? And how do you look at customer service and the role of customer service in your business?
[00:09:38] Patrick: Yes. So every person has gone through that experience where they buy something, and then they’re extremely disappointed with how that product performs or is responded to over time. Steve Jobs did a really good job, and I’m not a big Steve Jobs fan, but he did describe this really well: you can make and have the best marketing in the world, but at the end of the day, if the product and service don’t live up to it, you’re just gonna go out of business. And where we see customer service, it is actually the least expensive part of supporting your product, because in every workflow that we have on the customer service side, we fix a problem. Every product is gonna have a problem. Every product is gonna have an issue, whether it’s a firmware update that pricked your device or a website that’s a little glitchy and has problems, you know, things. When you make contact with that customer service workflow, is it solved in a way that makes them feel like you care? And so it’s an investment because once you fix a problem or you give the sense that you really care about their business, you can ask them to buy more, and they will. 80% of the time, they will subscribe another month, they will do whatever it takes because in today’s day and age, where so many things are transactional, where so many things are done in a way that is just they don’t just don’t feel like you care, just a simple smile, a simple acknowledgement is all people really want. When I’m in San Francisco, we play this test: make eye contact with somebody and smile. They smile back. They don’t know you, and they’re probably under a lot of stress, but we lack a lot of kindness and warmth and empathy in this world because the airwaves and social media – it’s full of negativity, and it’s full of all of this dark stuff – so when you see somebody smile back at you, it’s kinda nice. And you don’t ask them to buy anything. So that’s when I say customer service, it’s just really neglected in the bowels of accounting as a cost center. It could be a revenue center, you just gotta put work into it.
[00:12:03] Niraj: That makes total sense. And then, basically, what you mentioned was that great customer support makes a huge amount of business sense, right? I mean, it’s just such a huge net positive, just approach it differently.
[00:12:14] Patrick: Zappos is the greatest example of taking a commoditized product, shoes, but you put great service behind it, they became the best shoe sales, and all they did was deliver great customer service.
[00:12:30] Niraj: Great. Another thing that I would love to talk about when we’re on the subject of customer support, right, is scaling it. I’m sure when you have a small team, a small number of customers is an easier problem. When it’s larger, it’s a lot harder and a more complex piece with so many moving pieces, right? So how many will scale customer service? Are there any metrics or parameters that you look at very frequently to make sure that you’re on the right track? And if you can, you know, maybe one or two instances of where your team went out above and beyond to make sure that the customer got what they needed.
[00:13:01] Patrick: So I’ll use telecom as a very good example. So telecom has, of course, exploded over the last 15 to 20 years and has been criticized for its lack of customer service, etcetera. But there are some companies that really shine. I would say it is a real big challenge to find a customer service workflow that scales if you don’t create exceptions for ways to make the customer service agent feel like they’re participating in growth. So, Cox Communications and cable companies had some success temporarily when they allowed customer service reps to earn commissions if they were to add a product or service. It was a pretty good workflow where somebody would call in, the person on the line would listen to their program, and it’s stuff like, “How do I program my remote? Why is this channel not on?” It’s just your typical customer service questions. And they would fix a problem, and then they would say, “You know, I’m glad we had this call. We would like to see if you’d be interested in a higher level of Internet service for thirty days.” So, it would transition from a cost center to a revenue center. Unfortunately, the bureaucratic nature of large corporations decided that customer service shouldn’t be doing sales. Sales needs to belong to salespeople. So they took that away from the customer service side, moved it over to sales, and then you saw the degradation of customer service because what was their incentive to do a good job? $18 an hour isn’t worth it, but if they know that they can make an extra $3 to $5 by fixing a problem and then allowing them to upgrade their service to something they probably would have bought anyway, then it creates a mindset that, hey, if I do a good job, then I get this. And when there was success happening, unfortunately, salespeople, selfishly as they are sometimes, decided that’s our job. You can’t do our job. And now look at the problem we have today.
[00:15:22] Niraj: That’s a very good example, and that’s very pertinent to so many industries, right? Not just to Telecom, but it’s actually pertinent to our industry also, where they have customers talking to customer support, to customer success, and account managers. And generally, the convention is that the account manager makes the sale, and everyone essentially supports the customer, and that’s maybe upside down.
[00:15:40] Patrick: Yes. So the workflow I would have used would be, “Hey, Sales, you need to compete with the customer service people because if they’re selling more, then maybe you need to sit next to them and listen to how they’re solving a problem and fixing something versus you do nothing but hard sales and if they don’t put it on close.” People can tell when you’re not being authentic. When you call a salesperson, you know they’re trying to sell you. But when you’re calling someone to fix a problem, and then they ask you to buy something, you’re just so much more likely to do it. And if they make more new revenue than you, don’t be threatened by it.
[00:16:21] Niraj: It’s absolutely, you’re just working with the incentive structures in your company, and I’m sure there’s a way forward that makes sense to everyone. Great learning there. I would love to also get to AI. We’re just going through your 2025 road map, and you talked about becoming an AI-enabled BPO, or AI-augmented BPO, and how, you know, none of us need to be threatened about revenue loss from AI and how it can be net additive to everything that we do, right? Would love to know your thoughts on that.
[00:16:48] Patrick: Yes. So right now, AI is really hyped up to fix and do all these different things. On LinkedIn, you go on your feed, and you will find lots of people saying how they are using AI to fix and cure cancer. The reality is, it is very limited in what it does well, but what it does do well, it does really well and efficiently. So what we have learned through failure is that automation and AI are very powerful as long as there are still people, empathy, and structures behind it that will handle exceptions, will handle different rules. Unity is putting itself as the hybrid model where we have, we start a workflow with people, we identify the repetitive and detailed items that should be replaced by AI, and that scales on the AI side. But you still have people tuning and augmenting it, and that seems to be a really good fit for most companies because what we see, large enterprise companies have technical people, but they’re very slow to move, slow to adopt, and very complex. Small companies and mid-market companies are the ones who need the automation because their margins are tight, and they’re just beginning to ramp up. But they don’t have the technical expertise to onboard and train and teach the language learning models, do they have the right types of people to take a body of work, upload it, and teach an LLM, and then tune it, and then fix it, and then handle the exceptions. That workflow would require them to add additional people, processes, and tools that they don’t have the KPO knowledge process expertise to do. So we’re filling in that gap because in this day and age, AI is going to become a necessary skill set to be able to reduce and to really excel your career and going forward. I like to use Instagram as an example. Do you remember when Instagram used to be just pictures?
[00:19:05] Niraj: Yeah. Absolutely. I do.
[00:19:07] Patrick: Now it’s almost all video. One second of video is how many pictures?
[00:19:13] Niraj: It depends on the frames per second, but 24, 30, 35. Yeah.
[00:19:17] Patrick: So now you need 24 of those pictures to produce one second of video. Are humans consuming less?
[00:19:25] Patrick: No, we’re not consuming any less. We’re consuming more. So if you think about what it required to create a beautiful picture, now you have to create a beautiful video. And without automation and AI, you can’t do it. So it’s enabling people to consume and create a much higher complex product at scale, so humans can consume more. Humans are insatiable. We want more, and we want to pay less. And without AI and automation, we’re not gonna get there. So, I’m not of the belief that AI is gonna replace people. It’s just gonna make us produce more. If you just go on ChatGPT and look at the payrolls of all the tech companies over the last five years, they have exploded. I thought AI was taking over those jobs. They’re just making them do more because we’re demanding more, but they still need people. And a lot of people talking about blue-collar industries, there’s now an explosion of people interested in HVAC, technical companies for plumbing, and they’re making really good money. So, there’s no danger that people will be replaced by AI, it’s just that you have to shift and learn AI if you wanna compete in technology.
[00:20:41] Niraj: Absolutely. Makes complete sense. You talked about using AI to scale, but having humans in the loop to protect and scale empathy, right? Very interesting way to put it. Would love to know if there are any concrete examples from your business, I mean, from what you do on a day-to-day basis, on how you might have put into place where you have human and AI working together to make sure that you have speed, you have efficiency, but you also have empathy.
[00:21:06] Patrick: Yes. So let’s talk about voice AI. If this is a workflow that requires information to be told, AI can do a good job. When’s my package arriving? When’s my appointment coming? When’s my doctor visit happening? So when an AI agent makes an outbound call to do reminders to tell people, and then it can create what we call “A/B Yes or No” questions. So, for example, in health care, we do a lot of AI scheduling, “Hello, Patrick. This is so and so. I’m an AI agent ensuring that you are scheduled for today. If you need to cancel, press 1. If not, you can hang up again.” So then there’s that trigger. That trigger is they press 1, and then the webhook goes into the Outlook integration, it says, “Well, then the next available appointment is this day.” They choose that appointment, and then another trigger happens within the code, where it sends an SMS, reschedules, and cancels the appointment with the doctor, and then another workflow happens to somebody else on a waitlist, saying, “Hey, this time opened up. Can you make it?” So then it creates this trigger workflow based on yes, no transactional pieces. That’s where AI does very well. Where AI will fall apart is when there needs to be a conversation that requires a bit of nuance, so let’s say the same call happens, and a person said, “I can make my appointment. However, I think my insurance expired.” That will trigger an exception handling. You will then be transferred to a person to manually verify the insurance because that office cannot have you go in there, and then they lose revenue on it. I hope that’s a good example.
[00:23:00] Niraj: That’s a good example. Absolutely.
[00:23:02] Patrick: So we work on those types of processes all the time because in the billions and billions of phone calls, AI can handle a very small section of it very well. But then you need to have a way out of it, usually with a person, because, let’s say, that person’s $30 an hour, but that appointment is going to achieve $3,000 in revenue, you can’t lose it, because they will get on the phone and call a different provider, and you lost the business.
[00:23:28] Niraj: Absolutely. So this totally makes business sense, too. Right? It’s not just empathy, but, you know, complete business sense.
[00:23:34] Patrick: And there is a very large segment of the population that doesn’t wanna talk to an AI agent or a robot. So are you just gonna say goodbye to their business? I enjoy talking to people to buy things, but I enjoy talking to automations when I just want to confirm something. That’s all.
[00:23:54] Niraj: Yeah. It’s just so much easier, right? Great conversation, Patrick. Last question, I think we have touched upon this through various aspects of what we discussed, but I would love to have your thoughts on what you’d want to say to people who are starting up right now. Right? People who are looking to start a company, a business, or maybe they are in a job right now and want to start up next year, right? What would your advice be?
[00:24:17] Patrick: You need to learn how to sell. If you’re an engineer who doesn’t like talking to people, you need to get over it. You need to learn to network and talk to people. I know so many amazing coders and introverts who are very good at their craft, but they don’t want to feel out of their comfort zone. And that’s this one thing you need to do is you have to be able to demo your own product. That’s one of the Silicon Valley problems I see is you have really smart people building a product, but they rely on other people to sell it. Nobody could sell it better than you, even if you think you’re not good at it. And two, you have to take care of your body; there are so many people who are living a very unhealthy lifestyle that your body will not be able to handle those days of stress. So, those are the two things I would recommend to any person who wants to start their own business is you need to be able to present your product, and believe it or not, nobody could sell your product better than you. And you have to believe that. No matter how weird and awkward and uncomfortable that is, when people actually see that, when I see somebody squirming because they’re trying to get through a demo, I wanna buy from them more because this sale means a lot to them, and I wanna build that confidence. And, also, if I see somebody who is supposed to lead me, who doesn’t take care of themselves, I am less apt to follow them and less apt to take their advice.
[00:25:59] Niraj: Makes sense. So two key things there, right? One was being able to get out there in front of people, and be confident about it because, as you mentioned, right, I mean, there’s so much value to authenticity. And even if you’re uncomfortable, if the authenticity comes across and comes through, people still value it.
[00:26:16] Patrick: I’ve bought from engineers who could barely make it; you could see them sweating. They could barely make it through a presentation, but it was them. And I wanna basically give them a hug because I know what that’s like.
[00:26:30] Niraj: And the second part, of course, was taking care of ourselves, taking care of bodies because, you know, it’s probably the most valuable thing that we’ve got, and we cannot go too far if our bodies do not allow it.
[00:26:41] Patrick: I don’t buy from people who look like they’re a train wreck.
[00:26:44] Niraj: Totally understand that. Yeah.
[00:26:45] Patrick: Everybody says, well, you know, la la la, you know, don’t be judgmental. Getting ten minutes with that one person, one time, you can fake a lot of things, but you can’t fake taking care of yourself. Buy the nicest suit in the world, but…
[00:26:59] Niraj: That does not cover for it. Absolutely. Great, Patrick and I could go on talking. I would love to catch up again, but we have had a great conversation. I would love to even just sum up some of the great things that we talked about today. The number one thing I think which was so critical to you when you started and which helped you carry through the initial years of hardship, probably was the clarity of purpose, right? I think that is so important for entrepreneurs. And the second thing that you mentioned about using your contacts, being able to use all the goodwill that you might have managed to earn, you know, while you’re working in a positive sense, right, when you start up. It’s so critical to building a great launching pad, you know, when you basically start your business. That was another very interesting learning for me. And of course, you know, two more things around customer service, right? I mean, great customer service makes great business sense. And a lot of times, the key to scaling great customer service probably is getting the incentives tight, and probably striking the right balance between trying to sell, between trying to support, and aligning everyone, probably is the most critical thing. And your last two bits towards the end, right, of course, about being authentic, being able to sell yourselves no matter what you do, and taking care of your body is probably the best way to wrap up this conversation. So thank you.
[00:28:16] Patrick: Thank you for having me.
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