Karen Lam (00:00):
You know, I wasn’t really the loudest person in the room. But what made the difference is one acknowledging that I am not an extroverted individual. What has really helped the context-driven part is that I’m also able to really take the time to listen to feedback.
Again, building on that empathy, providing the context. Because sometimes, even as a context-driven leader, if you want to go one way and everyone else is telling you the other way is the better way, you still have to listen.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (00:33):
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Experience Matters podcast. Today, we have Karen Lam with us. Karen is the director of customer support at Top Hat, an edtech company that helps college and university instructors create interactive, engaging classroom experiences.
Before Top Hat, Karen worked on customer care operations at Telus and later at WSP, where she managed IT service delivery and process improvement. Karen brings her strong mix of technical knowledge and customer service expertise in telecommunications, engineering services, and EdTech.
Her leadership style has been recognized through the Bronze Stevie Award for Best Omnichannel Strategy, which also we would love to talk more about. So, really excited about the conversation, Karen. Let’s get into it.
Karen Lam (01:08):
Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Niraj for the invite, and very excited to talk about all the experience today.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (01:15):
Excellent. A great starting point, Karen, would be to talk about what you do at Top Hat. Maybe a quick introduction to your role and how your company has been contributing to customer success.
And maybe to start with, it would also be very interesting to understand how you got into customer service and customer support.
Karen Lam (01:33):
Yeah, for sure. So many questions. Definitely at Top Hat, being a director of customer support, a lot of it is overseeing, of course, customer operations.
Fairly straightforward there.
But definitely being a large part of the support operations means that I’m very much focused on not only our professors, but we also work with students as well. So when it comes to making those meaningful experiences and making sure that we’re really sparking better education, better learning experiences across the board, it’s both for professors and for students.
In terms of how I got into customer support, what that means for my experiences within Top Hat—it all started very early on.
My first job happened to be at the grocery store. I think a lot of us, a lot of individuals who really focus on customer experience, have a first experience doing something that is very much in the customer service realm. So, worked at the grocery store for a little bit, worked behind the counter doing a lot of refunds, really listening to customers.
Overall, I think if anything, that’s really what gives me very much a reason to be a context-driven leader, simply due to the fact that I really love giving people… “what’s the meaning behind this? How can we make this more meaningful?” and becoming more empathetic to the customer. Those are things that are really super interesting to me.
That’s how customer service for me sort of first started. I moved into different industries, different roles. A lot of it still required skills within customer service.
And definitely here at Top Hat, what really drives the difference between having just a regular team and a really amazing team has been really focusing on being empathetic towards the customer. Really driving that empathy.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (03:17):
Lots there to unpack, Karen. I’ll start with you mentioning being a context-driven leader. Let’s just talk about that. Can you tell the audience more about what you mean by that and how does one get there?
Karen Lam (03:35):
For sure. Being a context-driven leader really means that you’re doing a lot of storytelling. You’re really giving not only members of your team but anyone that you interact with across the organization the meaning behind what you’re doing.
I often find that if you give people that context, give them the reason of why they need to do what they do or why we will be better if we go route A versus route B, then you do end up getting much better results.
And the reason for that is people can begin to see your side of the conversation. They can begin to empathize with what you’re working towards and really go towards… you know, align on the same goals, move in the same direction.
One of the things that does come up in conversation is that I happen to be an introvert. For a very long time, I found it really challenging to really tell people that—even though I think it was very obvious when people were interacting with me, where I wasn’t really the loudest person in the room.
But what made the difference, and where I began to really make peace with that and really become a much better leader, is one: acknowledging that I am not an extroverted individual.
And you know, definitely different personality types work very well together. But also what’s been really encouraging—and what has really helped the context-driven part—is that because I’m also able to really take the time to listen to feedback, again building on that empathy, providing the context.
Because sometimes, even as a context-driven leader, if you want to go one way and everyone else is telling you the other way is the better way, you still have to listen. And sometimes there could be situations where you’re not really able to shift gears for whatever those reasons are.
As long as you take the opportunity to sit back and listen, digest, and make sure that individuals feel heard, that’s where you’re going to see the big difference.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (06:25):
Makes sense. So there are two parts to it, from what I understood, right? One is making sure they see the forest and don’t get lost in the trees.
And to some extent, probably, as you touched upon, being an introvert may have helped you focus more clearly. And the second part is being open to outside feedback and not letting your own biases interfere. Very important insights.
We’ll get back into it, but I’d love to dig a bit deeper into your role at Top Hat. You’ve been there for some time. Can you talk about what you started doing when you joined, how it evolved, and how your understanding of being a context-aware leader grew with your experience?
Karen Lam (07:10):
Niraj, that’s a very interesting question. I love unpacking that.
So when I first joined Top Hat, the structure within the support team was fairly flat. Essentially, you were either a technical support representative or a technical support specialist. Or you were a senior leader. And when I say senior leader, I mean like a senior member of the team. There were really only those two levels.
What that also meant is that people tended to cap out. That led to different levels of turnover and less engagement. It was challenging to keep everyone involved.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (09:45):
Makes sense. So one question there, Karen: I understand you could rally your entire customer-facing team around this, but I imagine you’d need alignment from other departments too.
If your team is posting things in Slack, you need a product to engage, you need tech to step in. How did you convince the rest of the company that it was worth their time to spend on support?
Karen Lam (10:05):
That’s a great question. Cross-departmental alignment can be tricky.
One of the things I’ve found—especially as a leader in support—is that managing our Voice of the Customer program has been the best way to drive alignment.
What’s different about how we run the Voice of the Customer at Top Hat is that we always provide the story—the context—behind everything. When we say “customer,” we’re talking about both external and internal customers. It could be a professor, a school admin, a student… or someone from our own CS or support teams.
In Voice of the Customer sessions, we meet every two weeks. Different teams take the spotlight each session and present one key issue impacting the customer experience.
The impact has been huge. It gives everyone shared context, a shared language. We all start to understand each other’s pain points. That’s how empathy builds—not just for the end customer, but across functions.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (11:37):
Can you tell us more about this Voice of the Customer program? Did you start it? Or inherit it and evolve it? And how do you get other teams to contribute?
Karen Lam (11:52):
Yeah, for sure. So it’s definitely a program that I did inherit. Initially, it was very focused on Net Promoter Score (NPS). Every week, we would meet, look at the NPS, review comments, slice the data in different ways—it was very data-focused. Not that we’ve moved away from that entirely, but back then it felt more like a readout.
When I took it over, I wanted to make sure the information we were sharing was actually actionable and useful to the people hearing it. So we started putting storytelling behind the data.
To get more cross-departmental involvement, we didn’t just rely on our public Slack channel, though that’s been a huge part of it. I also started reaching out individually to leaders to ask if they had something valuable to share.
One example: we have a Learning Solutions team that works closely with our authors. Historically, they weren’t always looped into product development or broader org-wide updates. I reached out to them, showed them a strong example from another team’s Voice of the Customer session, and asked if they’d like to present.
From just that one reach-out, they’ve since requested more sessions to share what they’re hearing and experiencing. That’s a win.
Also, the Voice of the Customer program isn’t just about pain points. We also share positive stories, examples of where things went right. The sessions are primarily attended by customer success teams and product managers. We’ve had some engineers join, too.
And there are spinoff initiatives that started because of the Voice of the Customer. It’s really become a cultural pillar.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (13:38):
So from what I understand, it essentially involves the entire company now. Do you run themes by team? Or a single topic that everyone joins?
Karen Lam (13:50):
It’s a single meeting, held twice a week. Different teams are invited to spotlight their focus area during each session.
We’ve started sharing a short one-to-two-page internal newsletter for non-customer-facing teams, especially those that might not attend live. It’s mostly for teams like finance. It includes NPS updates, a few customer comments, and some light AI-powered analysis on what we’re seeing: what customers are saying, patterns that are emerging, and potential next steps.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (14:36):
Makes sense. One thing I’ve always found powerful in these sessions is anecdotes. You can have three pages of graphs, but one customer story lands harder. Do you focus on that?
Karen Lam (14:49):
Yeah, for sure. We invite our customer success managers—they’re usually the ones with the best stories. We ask them to share what they’re seeing and hearing.
Beyond Voice of the Customer, we also like sharing “zero to hero” stories. A customer who started off unhappy but, through the efforts of multiple teams, became an advocate. That kind of turnaround story is gold.
You nailed it—it’s about the story. The data matters, but the narrative is what gives it weight and makes it memorable.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (15:58):
Great. Good to learn all that. One thing that intrigued me was your experience across different sectors—telecom, engineering, and EdTech. What common threads have you noticed? And how does customer behavior or employee behavior shift across those industries?
Karen Lam (16:15):
That’s a great question. I think if anything, there are a lot of similarities across those sectors. The most successful teams are the ones that consistently empathize with the customer.
Now, empathy isn’t something you can really teach—it’s more of an innate skill. But you can encourage people to be more understanding of someone’s situation. And you do that by giving them context.
In engineering, for instance, at my previous company I worked with a lot of junior developers. They were brilliant technically, but not always customer-focused. And that’s okay—not everyone has to be great at both.
But when you find someone who is technical and empathetic, that’s rare. That’s your unicorn.
What we did was structure our team accordingly. If someone was deeply technical but not as strong with customers, we gave them roles that fit. And those who had strong customer instincts got a different growth path.
At Top Hat, our product is complex, but it doesn’t require agents to write code. That means we can find people who are comfortable reading and understanding technical documentation but also bring that customer-centered mindset.
That blend—being technical enough, but also empathetic—is what makes growth paths more strategic and more meaningful. You don’t have to sacrifice one for the other.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (17:45):
Makes sense. And given your experience hiring across roles and sectors, how do you assess something abstract like empathy? What’s worked for you over the years?
Karen Lam (18:00):
Yeah, that’s a great question.
Early on, I didn’t have much of a system. But over time, I’ve refined my approach. I now have a list of go-to questions that help assess different skills, including empathy.
One of my favorite prompts is this: “Pretend I know nothing. Pick a hobby or something you’re really into, and explain it to me like I’m a complete beginner.”
It’s so telling. You learn if someone can break down complex information. That’s a proxy for empathy, because it shows they’re thinking about the other person’s perspective.
You also learn about their interests, which helps with team dynamics. And you see how they communicate. Can they simplify? Can they stay engaging?
Another big one is curiosity. I think that’s the trait that separates a good agent from a great one.
So I’ll ask: “Is there anything I haven’t asked that you wish I had?”
Or: “What’s something you’d want me to know before this interview ends?”
That sounds simple, but the way people answer gives away a lot—how reflective they are, what they’re curious about, and whether they care enough to go deeper.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (19:45):
That’s such a great framework. I love how practical it is. Let’s switch gears for a bit. You mentioned earlier that when a company doesn’t value support, it becomes reactive instead of strategic.
For CX leaders in that kind of setup, where support is still seen as a cost center, what can they do to change that perception?
Karen Lam (20:08):
Honestly, sometimes the best move is to leave. I know that sounds harsh, but if leadership doesn’t value support in 2025, they’re probably not going to suddenly start now. The longer you stay, the more you validate their mindset.
Be honest with your team. Tell them this isn’t normal. Help them see what great support orgs look like.
Of course, not everyone can just leave immediately. So while you’re there, build the case. Gather stories. Track impact. Share wins. But if you’re hitting a wall, don’t let it define your career. There are companies that do see support as strategic. Go find them.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (21:03):
I appreciate the honesty. Now let’s flip that around. Say you’re a founder or executive who wants to put CX at the center. What should they be doing differently?
Karen Lam (21:17):
Start with your roadmap. How much of it is based on customer input? How much tech debt are you addressing?
Then look at who’s in the room. If your support leaders aren’t part of product meetings, launch planning, or marketing campaigns, you’re not customer-obsessed, no matter what you say. Also, think about how often you see your customers. Are you joining support calls? Are you reading tickets or NPS responses?
Your words matter less than your actions.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (22:09):
Let’s talk about AI. It’s been a big part of the conversation in support teams lately. What’s your take—how should teams approach AI over the next few years?
Karen Lam (22:23):
AI can be amazing, but it shouldn’t talk to customers without strict QA. You can’t blindly trust a bot. Where AI really helps is in freeing up time. I used to spend 40 hours a month manually analyzing tickets. Now, AI tools can do that for me—without bias—and I can focus on the bigger picture.
Instead of labeling tickets, I’m coaching my team. Instead of pulling reports, I’m joining strategic conversations. But it only works if you’ve built trust in your team. If you’re hiring skilled CX professionals and giving them nothing but repetitive work, you’re wasting their talent.
Let AI handle the grunt work. Let your people do what they’re best at—helping customers and improving the product.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (24:10):
That’s a great perspective. One final question before we wrap: What’s one thing you wish more people understood about support leadership?
Karen Lam (24:24):
That it’s hard—and that it matters. Support leaders are constantly juggling priorities, reacting to issues, and advocating for both customers and their team.
But because it’s often invisible work, it’s easy to overlook. So if you work with a great support leader, tell them. Recognize it. Invest in it. Because when support is strong, everything else gets stronger too.
Niraj Ranjan Rout (25:04):
That’s such a powerful note to end on. Karen, thank you so much for being here and sharing your insights. It’s been a pleasure.
Karen Lam (25:12):
Thank you so much. This was such a thoughtful conversation. Really appreciated it.
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